Hello Geo;

Geo wrote to Nightfox <=-

It would certainly be interesting to hear from a curiosity standpoint.
But in reality it kinda missed the point of Vinyl 8-)
A good clean, Anti Static 180g LP is pretty darn quiet. 8-)

I run mine through not one but 2 limiter/compressors and they sound *very* clean... as long as the platter isn't warped <G>

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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Geo on Tue Sep 14 2021 23:41:00

Hi Ogg

A good clean, Anti Static 180g LP is pretty darn quiet. 8-)

I concur. A good quality vinyl on a fine system (decent needle
and cartridge) is a pleasure to witness.

Yeah, my Band just recieved the test pressings for our new albumn, so can't get much fresher vinyl than that 8-)

They sound great.8-)

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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Nightfox to Geo on Wed Sep 15 2021 09:01:56

Hi Nightfox,

It would certainly be interesting to hear from a curiosity standpoint.

But in reality it kinda missed the point of Vinyl 8-)

How does the laser turntable miss the point of vinyl?

Nightfox

I simply meant that these days its about experiencing the vinyl along with any imperfections. Like we did many years ago.

If one wants pristine, there is always streaming or CD.

One major benefit though of Laser I guess is NO more wear on the LP's. 8-)

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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Tue Sep 14 2021 23:35:00

Hi,

Another thing I heeard not too long ago, that I didn't
really think much about before, is that the inner grooves
of a record isn't as able to reproduce high frequencies as
well as the outer grooves. Since records turn at a
constant speed, there's less and less area as the groove
gets toward the center, which means less surface available
to record audio information.

I've never heard of that. I've heard a lot of issues about
recordings from audiophiles and some audio engineers, but not
the thing about high-frequencies vs area wrt to inner grooves.

This can be overcome by proper tracking adjustment with a good protractor 8-)

Vinyl (on a prestine system) has always sounded better for me
compared to the early CDs pressings that came out in the 80s.

Deffinitly. 8-)

I guess it just different not necessarily better. Its all in the Mastering I rekon. 8-)

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Hello Nightfox!

** On Wednesday 15.09.21 - 08:33, Nightfox wrote to Ogg:

laser turntable been around? I had no idea that this was
getting explored back in the 80s.[...]

I don't know how long this has been around. I think I
first came across that laser turntable maybe 8 years ago..
Interesting if it was being explored in the 80s. I'd think
the price would be less than it is if that were the case.

According to the article the first models were about $35K.
Now, they are $10K; that's a pretty good reduction! LOL

I was positioning myself to digitize my LP collection a few
years ago, but when Spotify came along, [...]

The advantage is it's your own copy of the music. I don't
like to rely on streaming services all the time..

Spotify offers a download option. Then, it's not required to
rely on an internet connection at all.

What's the point of recording and filing the tracks of an LP
when I can get exactly the same thing from Spotify in download
mode?

Also, storage is cheap. I'd probably prefer to have a CD
version though. I ripped my whole CD collection in 2009,
and I sometimes still buy music on CD and rip it on my PC.

Storage is indeed cheap. I'll still seek out an occassional
actual CD too.

The 1st generation CD players did a horrible job with CDs
when they first came out.

I imagine that may be why some people think vinyl sounds
better.

That's part of it. The early products had a two-fold problem:
the DACs in earlier models were poor, and the mastering of CDs
was not well done.

This article is a good read and explains some issues that even
persist to this day:

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/as-we-see-it-tips-thoughts/65-road-
to-hell

No need to buy the laser turntable just yet. Audition one
if/when you get a chance. The cost of LPs is crazy at
$20+

I'm not sure where I'd be able to borrow one. I haven't
seen any in my area.

Not borrow. I mean, go to a facility or audio shop that has
demo rooms. But even at $10K per player, I doubt that any
independent shop would bother to get one.

Further into the wiki article above: "A similar technology is
to scan or photograph the grooves of the record, and then
reconstruct the sound [...]

I've heard of that being done too. I think it would be
interesting to have a music collection in the form of
photos (as PNGs or JPGs) rather than audio files. I wonder
if you could even save some drive space that way.. I
wonder if a photo of a vinyl album would be smaller than
individual FLAC or MP3 files for the same album.

I wonder about the data-sizes with the photo approach too.

The key here is to extract the data established by the vinyl
grooves and store it in digital format for repeat listens. But
the designers of those players aren't thinking of that for the
player; they are wanting to replicate the real-time play of the
vinyl, at each and every play.

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Hello Arelor!

** On Wednesday 15.09.21 - 09:04, Arelor wrote to Ogg:

I was positioning myself to digitize my LP collection a few
years ago, but when Spotify came along, the whole idea seemed
moot. A Spotify subscription is far less than the cost of time

I don't think a streaming subscription is a substitute of
having your own copy. My father used to brag of some films
he had available at Amazon Prime for so cheap, until they
took those down of the platform.

But my point is that I *do* have my own originals. It just
doesn't make sense to go through the time and effort to make
copies when I can get them from Spotify.

Should the day arrive when a certain recording would nolonger
be available on Spotify.. no problem - *then* I could dig out
my original and make a copy of that.

It just doesn't make sense to digitize a 1100 LP collection
when the digitization of the mast majority of it is already
done by someone else.

I have taken the time to digitize my VHS or otherwise
obtain quality digital copies of my multimedia because of
that reason. You cannot count things to be available on the
Internet forever, even in the Pirate underdarks.

Makes sense to put VHS onto a newer medium anyway. I have a
DVR recorder that can faciliate the output of a VHS player so
that I could record the content of the VHS onto the HDD and
then burn the file to DVD. But some commercial VHS movie tapes
output a scramble signal and can't be copied that way.

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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Wed Sep 15 2021 11:31 pm

laser turntable been around? I had no idea that this was
getting explored back in the 80s.[...]

According to the article the first models were about $35K.
Now, they are $10K; that's a pretty good reduction! LOL

That's a good deal then.. :P

What's the point of recording and filing the tracks of an LP
when I can get exactly the same thing from Spotify in download
mode?

I sometimes forget the streaming apps offer a download option. But can you play the downloaded file with any music player app, or can you only use Spotify to play the downloaded file? I somehow doubt they'd just let people freely download music files to be shared and played with any software.. I'd imagine there may be some DRM involved, or locking the file so it can't be played with anything else.

I imagine that may be why some people think vinyl sounds
better.

That's part of it. The early products had a two-fold problem:
the DACs in earlier models were poor, and the mastering of CDs
was not well done.

And over the years, record studios have released remastered CDs of many albums. I tend to replace my old copies with remasters, but honestly I usually can't tell much difference in the sound.

I read an article a while ago saying that with the repeated remasters over the years, one thing they've tended to do is increase the volume, which has the negative effect of reducing the sound quality. Volume increases on remasters is something I haven't really noticed much, but probably because I haven't paid much attention..

This article is a good read and explains some issues that even
persist to this day:

http://www.audiodrom.net/en/as-we-see-it-tips-thoughts/65-road-
to-hell

That's interesting.. And as I've occasionally digitized a few of my cassette tapes (they were music unavailable on CD as well as some personal recordings), I find that kind of thing interesting.

I've heard of that being done too. I think it would be
interesting to have a music collection in the form of
photos (as PNGs or JPGs) rather than audio files. I wonder
if you could even save some drive space that way.. I
wonder if a photo of a vinyl album would be smaller than
individual FLAC or MP3 files for the same album.

I wonder about the data-sizes with the photo approach too.

The key here is to extract the data established by the vinyl
grooves and store it in digital format for repeat listens. But
the designers of those players aren't thinking of that for the
player; they are wanting to replicate the real-time play of the
vinyl, at each and every play.

If you extract the data from the photos and save them, you're back at having a collection of MP3 and/or FLAC audio files (or perhaps some other audio format).

Nightfox

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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Arelor on Wed Sep 15 2021 11:58 pm

Makes sense to put VHS onto a newer medium anyway. I have a
DVR recorder that can faciliate the output of a VHS player so
that I could record the content of the VHS onto the HDD and
then burn the file to DVD. But some commercial VHS movie tapes
output a scramble signal and can't be copied that way.

If replacing VHS copies, I think it can make sense to buy the DVDs or blu-rays if available. They usually do a process so that the image takes advantage of the mediums' higher resolution. If you record VHS onto DVD etc., then you're still really only getting a 480p(?) quality image from the VHS tape.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Brian Rogers to Digital Man on Wed Sep 15 2021 12:47 am

Last but not least, the quality of the preamp which is the final link in the audio chain. A better preamp typically will have better audio.

I don't disagree about the preamp, but the actual "final link" in the audio chain is your eardrums. And mine haven't aged well. Decades of playing drums in loud rock bands and shooting big guns, sometimes without hearing protection, has had its toll. But I can still hear the difference between good and high fidelity, just not nearly as pronounced as when I was much younger.

Oh, and just before your eardrums comes the speakers. :-)
--
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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Nightfox to Ogg on Thu Sep 16 2021 09:32 am

Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Arelor on Wed Sep 15 2021 11:58 pm

Makes sense to put VHS onto a newer medium anyway. I have a
DVR recorder that can faciliate the output of a VHS player so
that I could record the content of the VHS onto the HDD and
then burn the file to DVD. But some commercial VHS movie tapes
output a scramble signal and can't be copied that way.

If replacing VHS copies, I think it can make sense to buy the DVDs or blu-ra if available. They usually do a process so that the image takes advantage o the mediums' higher resolution. If you record VHS onto DVD etc., then you'r still really only getting a 480p(?) quality image from the VHS tape.

Nightfox

I agree that getting a recent digital copy that has been properly transefer is optimal, but from my end, I encounter two issues:

1) I am not buying a film I already own, even if for upgrading from a format to another.

2) Many times, they botch the transfers by including deleted scenes that were excluded from the original for a good reason.

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Hello Digital Man!

** On Thursday 16.09.21 - 12:57, Digital Man wrote to Brian Rogers:

I don't disagree about the preamp, but the actual "final link" in the audio chain is your eardrums. And mine haven't aged well. [...]

Oh, and just before your eardrums comes the speakers. :-)

And oh, guess what? Our brains process the sound digitally!
..you know, neurons firing, brain interpreting a sound, etc.



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Hello Digital Man;

Digital Man wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

I don't disagree about the preamp, but the actual "final link" in the audio chain is your eardrums. And mine haven't aged well. Decades of playing drums in loud rock bands and shooting big guns, sometimes
without hearing protection, has had its toll. But I can still hear the difference between good and high fidelity, just not nearly as
pronounced as when I was much younger.

Ahhh quite true that. I'm surprised mine have held up for as good as they
have although there are others who would argue the fact. I've always enjoyed music I can feel not just hear. I've been somewhat lucky in that regard I guess. Just not lucky in every other area of aging!

Oh, and just before your eardrums comes the speakers. :-)

I used to have a set of Peavy SP-3s... they had a light inside of them on
the horn to help absorb some of the clipping. To me that was almost like having internal strobe lights. I did end up getting a set of RatShack Mach I (the original Mach Is) at a decent price. One of the ultimate in speakers one could get. Talk about an insane frequency response!

... SGD: Spin and Granulate Disks
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Hello Geo!

** On Thursday 16.09.21 - 09:47, Geo wrote to Ogg:

I guess it just different not necessarily better. Its all
in the Mastering I rekon. 8-)

OMG, is it ever!

It may not be easy to know who was the mastering engineer of a
recording especially all we do is get material from a stream
these days, but who did the mastering could be all the
difference in quality.

I'm the owner of a few thousand CDs since the advent of the CD
player. In time I discovered a common denominator among the
best sounding CDs - the best are mastered by Bob Clearmountain
or Bob Ludwig, or Bernie Grundman. This information was easily
noted on physical CDs but not so much now from streaming
sources. That's sad because anything by those guys no matter
what the genre - was/is great music.


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Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Ogg to Geo on Fri Sep 17 2021 21:51:00

Hi Ogg

I'm the owner of a few thousand CDs since the advent of the CD
player. In time I discovered a common denominator among the
best sounding CDs - the best are mastered by Bob Clearmountain
or Bob Ludwig, or Bernie Grundman. This information was easily
noted on physical CDs but not so much now from streaming
sources. That's sad because anything by those guys no matter
what the genre - was/is great music.

Thats where Tidal has been ahead of the Game, They make a concerted effort to include as much Meta Data as they can get with their streams.

8-)

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Hello Ogg;

Ogg wrote to Geo <=-

I guess it just different not necessarily better. Its all
in the Mastering I rekon. 8-)

OMG, is it ever!

[snip]

One also must take into consideration the tuning of the various insturments used by the individual band members of a group. Nigel Olson has a specific sound to his drums say than does Neal Pert...and so on.

... Odo, is there any more Jell-O in the fridge? Odo?? Odo??!!
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OGG wrote to ARELOR <=-

But my point is that I *do* have my own originals. It just
doesn't make sense to go through the time and effort to make
copies when I can get them from Spotify.

Should the day arrive when a certain recording would nolonger
be available on Spotify.. no problem - *then* I could dig out
my original and make a copy of that.

Statler Brothers - Maple Street Memories - the SONG (that was
a single release) is available everywhere, but the album? Nope!

Side A is something you can put on and close your eyes and you're
THERE. I have it, still, and one day will get it transferred
over... :-)




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Nightfox wrote to Ogg <=-

If replacing VHS copies, I think it can make sense to buy the DVDs or blu-rays if available. They usually do a process so that the image
takes advantage of the mediums' higher resolution. If you record VHS
onto DVD etc., then you're still really only getting a 480p(?) quality image from the VHS tape.

I find it interesting that with some TV shows that broadcast in 480p,
they're able to remaster wide-screen editions and do some color correction
in the process. Star Trek: TNG and DS9 are apparently getting remastered,
and the widescreen shots look pretty good.

What I didn't like was having re-mastered graphics in ST:TOS while keeping
the original low-res film shots. It would have been an amusing easter egg to see them retcon the U.S.S. Constellation's number in the remake (the
original Constellation was NCC-1017 because they kit-bashed a storebought Enterprise kit and re-arranged NCC-1701...)
... See you on the other side.
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Re: Re: Turntables and LPs
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Fri Sep 17 2021 08:00 am

I find it interesting that with some TV shows that broadcast in 480p, they're able to remaster wide-screen editions and do some color correction in the process. Star Trek: TNG and DS9 are apparently getting remastered, and the widescreen shots look pretty good.

Star Trek: TNG was already remastered, for blu-ray, and the entire show was released on blu-ray from 2012 to 2015. And they kept the image in 4:3 format rather than making it widescreen - They didn't shoot the series in a way that would allow them to make it widescreen. If they expanded the scans of the shot, you'd see camera/audio equipment or the edges of the sets, etc. that you aren't supposed to see. And cropping the image to produce a widescreen image isn't ideal either, since you'd be losing part of the image.

However, they have not remastered DS9. I've read that one reason is because DS9 was apparently shot on videotape, which doesn't lend itself well to a remaster (whereas TNG was shot on 35mm film, making TNG a better candidate for a remaster). Also, apparently DS9 used computerized special effects more often than TNG, and the 3D models & such used for the special effects are difficult or impossible to find (they may have been lost). The special effects were rendered at basically 480p resolution, so to remaster it, they'd have to re-create the special effects from scratch and re-render them in high definition. Also, unfortunately the TNG remaster has apparently not sold well enough for them to consider doing the job to remaster DS9 properly.

Since TNG was filmed on 35mm film, they were able to gather all the 35mm film negatives and re-scan them in high definition before adjusting the color & picture, etc.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Sep 23 2021 13:47:04

I find it interesting that with some TV shows that broadcast in
480p, they're able to remaster wide-screen editions and do some
color correction in the process. Star Trek: TNG and DS9 are
apparently getting remastered, and the widescreen shots look pretty
good.

Star Trek: TNG was already remastered, for blu-ray, and the entire show was released on blu-ray from 2012 to 2015. And they kept the image in 4:3

What does ANY of this have to do with Turntables and LP's???????
-+-

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Re: Re: Turntables and LPs
By: Lupine Furmen to Nightfox on Thu Sep 23 2021 05:50 pm

Star Trek: TNG was already remastered, for blu-ray, and the entire
show was released on blu-ray from 2012 to 2015. And they kept the
image in 4:3

What does ANY of this have to do with Turntables and LP's???????

Thread drift.. It happens often.

Nightfox

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Hello JIMMY ANDERSON!

** On Monday 20.09.21 - 22:42, JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to OGG:

Should the day arrive when a certain recording would
nolonger be available on Spotify.. no problem - *then* I
could dig out my original and make a copy of that.

Statler Brothers - Maple Street Memories - the SONG (that
was a single release) is available everywhere, but the
album? Nope!

Side A is something you can put on and close your eyes and
you're THERE. I have it, still, and one day will get it
transferred over... :-)

Interesting. One song, available. But not the rest of the
album.

Who knows what barganing goes on in arranging the licensing.

A few CD copies for sale on discogs, but they're not cheap!
Meanwhile, all the tunes are obtainable to purchase as MP3s.

I really wanted to audition the Vollenweider and Friends: 25
Years Live 1982-2007 recording (it was listed briefly on
Spotify) ..but by the time I went to give it a shot, it was
nolonger available to stream.

Same story.. streaming not available, but MP3 purchase, is.

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Hello Brian Rogers!

** On Wednesday 15.09.21 - 00:47, Brian Rogers wrote to Digital Man:

I've found over the years that almost everything involved
with a conventional record can affect the sound quality
[...]

[...] Then you have stylus and cartridge... both of which
lose tone with age.

I thought it was just the stylus that would wear out. But
because of the cost, it's just as easy to get a whole new
cartrige+stylus combined.

Last but not least, the quality of the preamp which is the
final link in the audio chain. A better preamp typically
will have better audio. [...]

I've been pretty happy with generic consumer hi-fi AM/FM/
Receiver amp combos. I'm impressed with people's systems that
have dedicated amps for just for LP/CD use, but my listening
spaces have been relatively small over the years (mostly
apartments) so the difference in sound with a audiophile
quality amp vs a receiver would not be much.


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Hello Ogg;

Ogg wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

I thought it was just the stylus that would wear out. But
because of the cost, it's just as easy to get a whole new
cartrige+stylus combined.

Cartridges also wear with age and usage... however the ear tends not to notice the degredation of sound as much as you would with a worn stylus. Typically
you should change your cartridge every 5th or so stylus change. The newer
ones may get you better milage :)

I've been pretty happy with generic consumer hi-fi AM/FM/
Receiver amp combos. I'm impressed with people's systems that
have dedicated amps for just for LP/CD use, but my listening
spaces have been relatively small over the years (mostly
apartments) so the difference in sound with a audiophile
quality amp vs a receiver would not be much.

I'm a bit impressed with the modern stuff tbh. I have an inexpensive soundbar system with 4" subwoofer and it sounds pretty nice for what it is. If Samsung didn't block the FM receiver in the phones I could link it with bluetooth for radio listening... but I can also use the various streaming apps. Still though nothing like old school audiophile stuff. Bass is more natural sounding than electronically generated sound.

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OGG wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

Statler Brothers - Maple Street Memories - the SONG (that
was a single release) is available everywhere, but the
album? Nope!

Side A is something you can put on and close your eyes and
you're THERE. I have it, still, and one day will get it
transferred over... :-)

Interesting. One song, available. But not the rest of the
album.

Who knows what barganing goes on in arranging the licensing.

A few CD copies for sale on discogs, but they're not cheap!
Meanwhile, all the tunes are obtainable to purchase as MP3s.

Okay - you prompted me to look there - yeah, not cheap, but I did
some other looking...

https://mozaart.com/en/r/maple-street-memories-the-statler-brothers

I'm currently listening while typing this reply and cooking
supper. :-)

I really wanted to audition the Vollenweider and Friends: 25
Years Live 1982-2007 recording (it was listed briefly on
Spotify) ..but by the time I went to give it a shot, it was
nolonger available to stream.

Same story.. streaming not available, but MP3 purchase, is.

Might check the site I link above? I did a search but didn't
find it...

And where are the MP3's available for Maple Street Memories? I
WILL be adding that to my collection!!!







... I don't have time to wait for instant gratification.
--- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
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Jimmy,

I'm currently listening while typing this reply and cooking
supper. :-)

A true multi-tasker. <G>

... I don't have time to wait for instant gratification.

My, aren't we the impatient one?? <G>

Daryl

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Hello JIMMY ANDERSON!

** On Thursday 14.10.21 - 16:50, JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to OGG:

https://mozaart.com/en/r/maple-street-memories-the-
statler-brothers

mozzart.com is a clever implementation of the "free" youtube
files wrapped into a dedicated music player/database with
playlist capability. But the youtube audio doesn't exceed
128kbps; probably good enough for the "good enough" listener.

I really wanted to audition the Vollenweider and Friends: 25
Years Live 1982-2007 recording (it was listed briefly..

Same story.. streaming not available, but MP3 purchase, is.

Might check the site I link above? I did a search but didn't
find it...

They would be foolish to allow it "free" on YT and not on
Spotify.

And where are the MP3's available for Maple Street Memories? I
WILL be adding that to my collection!!!

But your mozaart/YT find for Maple Street Memories is
interesting. It seems that one collection of tunes has slipped
the producer's radar.


--- OpenXP 5.0.50
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP